Curse

Mireles · Apr 23, 2010, 12:25 AM // 00:25

I think (hope) ArenaNet is dealing with it, of course admins arn't going to come on here and tip everyone off "were working on it"... Like when they banned everyone for the HFFF bot... they waited until it was wide spread so that people felt safe using it, so if your the type of player that would cheat if you wouldn't get caught... they got them too.... they collected massive evidence on the bot users and banned them all on a double faction weekend...

Hopefully same will happen here...
But really thou... how are ppl going to argue that bots should be allowed because there better than ppl?.... why don't we just all go animated and watch bots play while were at it?... last time i check games were meant to be played.

Pvp = Bot Wars now, I can see everyone's PvP accomplishments being greatly devalued maybe even totally inlegitimized in the eyes of the community if this continues.

Regulus X · Apr 23, 2010, 05:33 AM // 05:33

People in this "virtual" world are heartless, malicious, and evil. They override all forms of morality and thrive off of other people's irk, pain, and displeasures, plus they get away with it because their identities are hidden (unless they're stupid enough to reveal themselves). There isn't any accountability enforced online, and that's why they do these evil deeds, such as botting. No one cares in this "virtual" world. However, if those same spineless jerks actually tried some $h!t like that out in the REAL world they'd wind up with a twisted jaw, fines, inprisonment, six feet under, etc... because there's enforcement in the real world (in the US at least).

Until internet users are held accountable for their deeds, they'll simply continue being spineless, shameless, malicious, obdurate, unrepentant, etc.

*lemming* · Apr 23, 2010, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mireles

Pvp = Bot Wars now, I can see everyone's PvP accomplishments being greatly devalued maybe even totally inlegitimized in the eyes of the community if this continues.

Fortunately enough, nobody gives a shit about what goes on in RA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Lulz. Some people just like to grief. There isn't a whole lot you can do about it, TBH.

Other than perhaps GvG, there isn't really any incentive to bot GW for lulz. GW botting tends to be outcome-oriented.

Fair enough - people do indeed run interrupt bots in r600 ladder on non-quest days. Not much incentive there besides watching teams die in two minutes and getting a kick out of it.

Admittedly, monk botting doesn't fit under that category of motivation, but remove glad points from RA and I can guarantee that people will still bot what they can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

People in this "virtual" world are heartless, malicious, and evil. They override all forms of morality and thrive off of other people's irk, pain, and displeasures, plus they get away with it because their identities are hidden (unless they're stupid enough to reveal themselves). There isn't any accountability enforced online, and that's why they do these evil deeds, such as botting. No one cares in this "virtual" world. However, if those same spineless jerks actually tried some $h!t like that out in the REAL world they'd wind up with a twisted jaw, fines, inprisonment, six feet under, etc... because there's enforcement in the real world (in the US at least).

Until internet users are held accountable for their deeds, they'll simply continue being spineless, shameless, malicious, obdurate, unrepentant, etc.

Terrible Surgeon · Apr 23, 2010, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by sankt hallvard

i hope anet has the gift of foresight and ability to make good judgement. Ai is the future and it would be a shame if they punished evolution by banning these wonderful inventions.

To err is human, humans have poor reflexes, make bad calls, are influenced by mood shifts and make irrational choices. With ai all these issues are resolved. It would make for a much more smooth and enjoyable experience for all the players if more of the environment was scripted. Human interaction is overrated.

I would love to have a healbot, a ruptbot and meleebot on my team in ra. Not having to put up with the frikkin fail players that usually end up on my team would be nothing but a blessing. In fact i would happily let a script play my character as well. After a day's work i could assess the results and rewards, things ai might not yet be optimal at doing. I'm talking about putting on new titles to pride myself with, open the zchest for fat loot and progress in the awesome title, selling zkeys to noobs, buy tormented weapons and obsidian armor, visit the zaishen menagerie, buy some costume packs, collect awesome minipets and hang out in my cool hall of monument.

Tl;dr - please anet, leave them bots alone!

save the bots!!! Eradicate any sign of humans!!!

Sierraa · Apr 23, 2010, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

People in this "virtual" world are heartless, malicious, and evil. They override all forms of morality and thrive off of other people's irk, pain, and displeasures, plus they get away with it because their identities are hidden (unless they're stupid enough to reveal themselves). There isn't any accountability enforced online, and that's why they do these evil deeds, such as botting. No one cares in this "virtual" world. However, if those same spineless jerks actually tried some $h!t like that out in the REAL world they'd wind up with a twisted jaw, fines, inprisonment, six feet under, etc... because there's enforcement in the real world (in the US at least).

Until internet users are held accountable for their deeds, they'll simply continue being spineless, shameless, malicious, obdurate, unrepentant, etc.

http://www.cyberbullyalert.com/

I'm sure every botter is out them maliciously coding and saying how much they hate every person that plays the game normally and they thrive knowing that their bots are -hurting- you directly. /sarcasm

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 23, 2010, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

People in this "virtual" world are heartless, malicious, and evil. They override all forms of morality and thrive off of other people's irk, pain, and displeasures, plus they get away with it because their identities are hidden (unless they're stupid enough to reveal themselves). There isn't any accountability enforced online, and that's why they do these evil deeds, such as botting. No one cares in this "virtual" world. However, if those same spineless jerks actually tried some $h!t like that out in the REAL world they'd wind up with a twisted jaw, fines, inprisonment, six feet under, etc... because there's enforcement in the real world (in the US at least).

Until internet users are held accountable for their deeds, they'll simply continue being spineless, shameless, malicious, obdurate, unrepentant, etc.

I'm going to take this opportunity to share some words of absolute wisdom that will probably be lost on you lot, but if you take some time to consider instead of instantly replying with some half-witty shit you might some day come to realise I was in fact sharing true wisdom.

People are evil, spineless and jerks regardless of a virtual or real life environment. It's basic human nature to look after one's self interest first and foremost. Despite all our enforcement people still commit horrible acts of crime, even when faced with threat of death people commit crime.

The only way to prevent this is to create a system of incentives that makes it rational in terms of self interest to act selfless. Adam Smith realised this when he talked about the "invisible hand" in Market Theory. The general idea is that when everyone on a free market acts in their own self interest the total output will be greater than any other system. This greater total can be redistributed to increase wealth for all.

In a game perspective that means rewarding wanted behaviour and punishing unwanted behaviour. The link between your action and the reward needs to be as immediate as possible. Playing the game "the normal way" needs to be more rewarding than ways that exploit it. A system needs to detect bot behaviour and exempt them from rewards such as glad pts and zkeys and reward real effort. Easier said than done obviously, but my point is that a system that relies on a reference to "morals" will inevitably fail. The ones upholding the "moral code" (not botting) will suffer in terms of rewards(zkey, glad pts) while the "immoral" people will benefit. This is not to say that people upholding the moral code will not get some reward in the form of feeling morally just and honest.

To sum up: Banning people for botting is no real solution, the most efficient solution is to create a system that actively discriminates bots and other unwanted behaviour. (The dishonorable system in RA for leaving your team is one such incentive structure. Another thing is that I disagree that the option to leave your team is an unwanted option, people should not be forced to play in a team without prospects.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terrible Surgeon

save the bots!!! Eradicate any sign of humans!!!

You'd think I was being sarcastic.

I might not have been also...

Mireles · Apr 23, 2010, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dont Cause Drama

Are you a complete hypocrite or just morally stupid? Let me know the next time your syncing codex and we can talk about cheating in pvp botwars.

Syncing does not diminish others experiences by defeating players while the player is not even present, or having a tool that gives me an advantage over other players in combat. Anyone with some friends with alt accounts can do it. It would be similar to someone with prophecies only calling someone with heroes a cheater.

Furthermore,

Definition of cheating - act of lying, deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others. Implies the breaking of rules.

You can't create an unfair advantage when another party is not present, and match manipulation is only against the rules in tournaments... it is not described in the EULA... therefore syncing does not meet the definition of cheating... if it was, we would of seen a mass ban for red resign day.

I'm not going to deny i synced codex for the monument and the z-quest days, When it came out it was just flat out quicker because there was nobody to fight, At least I don't claim to have gotten the title legitimately like [Fly],[SoS], or whatever guild that group has moved on to. Nor do I attend to achieve a rank higher than 3 in this manner.

Syncing is an opportunity of circumstance caused by lack of players... it won't last much longer... ppl are catching on which means ppl will have to fight each other.

Try arguing with facts not insults, and Don't Cause Drama plz

I just want some z-keys.. see you next z-codex day.

niek2004 · Apr 25, 2010, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Dont forget NoQi double PB mesmers who bot.

coil · Apr 25, 2010, 06:54 PM // 18:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Yes, but a better solution is to strip the incentives that lead people to bot. In all honesty, it's probably too late to do much for GW.

let's say anet decided to take martin's advice...after the Shining Blade rolls the White Mantle Princess Salma declares:

mini island guardians and kanaxi's start dropping from urgoz/deep chest (akin to dhuum).
other rare minis are offered in the online store (~20-50$ per)
faction can not be traded for zkeys...they can only drop from tombs chest or from RP's
or zkeys can be purchased via online store (effectively lowering their ingame value)
gold items dropped more in HM
ectos were set at a constant 150g at trader
titles were adjusted, some effectively cut in half

i think that's everything right? you'd anger an assload of people. but you'd also take away some incentives to cheat/exploit. and yes it is most likely too late in the game to turn the "economy" upside down...but people also said it was too late to nerf shadowform/speedclears.

AtomicMew · Apr 25, 2010, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

To sum up: Banning people for botting is no real solution, the most efficient solution is to create a system that actively discriminates bots and other unwanted behaviour. (The dishonorable system in RA for leaving your team is one such incentive structure. Another thing is that I disagree that the option to leave your team is an unwanted option, people should not be forced to play in a team without prospects.)

I think you are severely missing the point. Your proposal is to create a system to discriminate against botting activity. First and foremost, that system would require being able to detect bots at an appreciable rates with both low false positives and negatives. However, that's the entire problem: once you are able to correctly identify bots, you are done! Whatever disincentive you create is no more or less efficient than simply banning all the botters.

The IDEAL solution is to remove incentive... completely. Remove zkeys, remove titles, make rare drops not rare. Create a game that is fun to play because it is fun to play, not because you have some chance of receiving phat lewt which you can then show off to all your e-friends.

fowlero · Apr 25, 2010, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

Dont forget NoQi double PB mesmers who bot.

Not forgetting [FpO] as well... Running three bot midliners. Ranger, then two hexers both with pspike lol.

Nice joke.

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 25, 2010, 07:30 PM // 19:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

I think you are severely missing the point. Your proposal is to create a system to discriminate against botting activity. First and foremost, that system would require being able to detect bots at an appreciable rates with both low false positives and negatives. However, that's the entire problem: once you are able to correctly identify bots, you are done! Whatever disincentive you create is no more or less efficient than simply banning all the botters.

The IDEAL solution is to remove incentive... completely. Remove zkeys, remove titles, make rare drops not rare. Create a game that is fun to play because it is fun to play, not because you have some chance of receiving phat lewt which you can then show off to all your e-friends.

I'm missing the point? Where do I advocate zkeys and titles? Show me.

Paradise Lost · Apr 25, 2010, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by fowlero

Not forgetting [FpO] as well... Running three bot midliners. Ranger, then two hexers both with pspike lol.

Nice joke.

Yeah we played them, they beat us because of it. Got a nice -45 and a poop trim.

AtomicMew · Apr 25, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

I'm missing the point? Where do I advocate zkeys and titles? Show me.

Right here: "A system needs to detect bot behaviour and exempt them from rewards such as glad pts and zkeys and reward real effort. "

I'm saying that the problem isn't in creating disincentive for known bots - that's easy. The problem is in detecting bots.

On the other hand, if you remove zkeys/titles etc COMPLETELY, people don't won't bot because they have no incentive to grind.

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 25, 2010, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

On the other hand, if you remove zkeys/titles etc COMPLETELY, people don't won't bot because they have no incentive to grind.

But.. I agree with this?

If you look at my post history you will notice that pretty much every 2nd post I make talks about titles and farm mentality being bad for the game. Usually I mask it in some sarcastic statement though.

When I talk about "reward" as per you quoting me that simply accepts the undeniable fact that people need motivation to play. The best reward(IMO) is FUN itself, whether this is enough or not is another topic for discussion.

If you could somehow find a factor of playing that a bot could not mimick then that's the factor you want to reward. Maybe there is no such "human identifiable" variable and then rewards will only serve to promote more botting. I'm not opposed to removing titles, glad pts and zkeys totally until such a system is in place, get your facts straight. Thinking you will get anything even resembling a majority to petition for this, however, is totally unrealistic.

AtomicMew · Apr 25, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

If you could somehow find a factor of playing that a bot could not mimick then that's the factor you want to reward. Maybe there is no such "human identifiable" variable and then rewards will only serve to promote more botting.

Yes, but this goes back to the fundamental problem of being able to identify bots. You stated that banning is not effective and incentive needs to be created to not bot. That's simply not true. Not getting banned IS a very good incentive not to bot - as long as bots can be reliably and immediately identified.

lishi · Apr 25, 2010, 11:03 PM // 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

[...]

No matter how much you incentive someone not to bot, the truth is that a bot can play 24/24 and a pc can run more then 1 bot at time on different account.
So botting will always be better then not botting.

While mass ban will not exactly resolve the situation they are needed, sure you will need something other then just bans to fix the problem. Like in real life you will need both the carrot(incentive to honest citizen) and the stick(prison) the same you will need on the virtual world.

Sankt Hallvard · Apr 25, 2010, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by trcvrs

Yes, but this goes back to the fundamental problem of being able to identify bots. You stated that banning is not effective and incentive needs to be created to not bot. That's simply not true. Not getting banned IS a very good incentive not to bot - as long as bots can be reliably and immediately identified.

I don't know if you are just trolling or deliberately trying to twist my meaning or what? Maybe I've not made myself clear enough. Being banned IS an incentive not to bot, but the way I see it a rather crude and ineffective such. To draw a parallell to real life's penal system studies show that risk of detection is a much more effective deterrant than the size and severity of a potential punishment.

I already said that rewards(or punishment) needs to be as direct and immediate as possible. The way it is now you risk a potential ban maybe sometime in the future. Until then the rewards in terms of zkeys/title are immediate and certain. And YES even this small potential keeps the majority of the playerbase from botting, tough as time moves on more and more will probably join in. This way then rewards the ones who started botting first(ie the most "dishonest") the most, hardly a just system.

The problem indeed is identifying bot behaviour, this needs to be done by some automatic and immediate measure not by manual supervision based on "user complaints" or some similar ridiculous way of policing it. I don't have an actual fix up my sleeve, if I did I would present it at once instead of talking in general terms. (Surely they have some computer skilled people at anet?)

I don't think we need to discuss this further, we're not even disagreeing by the looks of it. No need to continue a circular argument.

Dusk Banewalker · Apr 25, 2010, 11:50 PM // 23:50

They might as well make pvp a big lotto. Give every skill a 1/5 chance to kill the user and a 1/5 chance to make the enemy asplode. Would at least be balanced then.

Either that or remove reaction based skills from the game. OFC they'll probably just do a mass ban sometime before gw2 since there's not much point in reworking gw1's pvp now.

AtomicMew · Apr 26, 2010, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Trolling... seriously? Don't be that guy. LISTEN to what I'm saying. I've argued with you in the past, so I know you're not that dense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard

To draw a parallell to real life's penal system studies show that risk of detection is a much more effective deterrant than the size and severity of a potential punishment.

I already said that rewards(or punishment) needs to be as direct and immediate as possible. The way it is now you risk a potential ban maybe sometime in the future.

You are drawing a blatant false dichotomy. The choice is NOT between banning and "REDUCING REWARD NOW."

There are two parts of the process to dealing with bots. 1) DETECTION and 2) DISINCENTIVE. Both banning and your suggestion are simply the disincentive. But that is beside the issue. Which disincentive you choose doesn't matter, because the problem for developers lies squarely in detection. Once you are able to reliably detect bots, it doesn't really matter which disincentive you choose.

At best, you are arguing that banning cannot, by your words, occur "directly and immediate as possible" which is patently false, considering it is policy, rather than anything intrinsic to the act of banning.